Racism is Alive at Ancient Sites

Racism Lives at Ancient Sites

Ancient Sites bills itself as: "Ancient Sites is more than just a place to find information about ancient history; it is a community that offers a place for experts and amateurs alike to ask questions and exchange ideas." However, it is website with a great many problems. One of their problems is the very thinly disguised racism on the part of many of the patrons and the demigods and cybergods.

They have a city (area) dedicated to Native American issues and history, yet if real Indians post truthful information about atrocities that occurred in the past, and are in fact still happening today, people whine if they mention who committed the atrocities and call the person imparting the information a racist or reverse racist. However, not once have I witnessed somebody saying anything that would imply that white people were hated. It was merely a statement of who committed the atrocities. It certainly didn't say anything about all whites doing this, because that would be a lie, for instance the Quakers were very active in trying to stop the atrocities that were being committed. Yet, the whiners persist, even though it is stated that it isn't an accusation or hatred aimed at all whites.

Then these whiners complain to the staff - the demigods and gods - who of course say, that well, that is reverse racism, or others will perceive it as racism, so don't post it. Yet, these same whiners back the posting of material that is New Age in context, but the people who post it say it is Native American. We the real Indians object to it falsely being called Native American, they get told, hey these people have the right to post here. Whether they had the right to post wasn't the issue, the issue was that was wrong to post something as being Native American when it isn't. In fact, AIM (a Native American Civil Rights Group), tribal leaders, and the Indian Community at large objects to the New Age movement because it abused Native Spirituality and they consider the New Age abuses of their spirituality to be spiritual genocide.

Here is an example of messages left by demigods and gods pertaining to what they perceive is anti-white racism:

I posted in the Sacred Circles board in my official capacity as a demigod. I did so because of the large number of complaints that we've had regarding the sometimes obvious sentiment in this topic and yesterday it got a wee bit out of hand.

I'm am fully aware of the continuing racism that permeates this country and to be honest, I hate the fact that it does exist. But I'm also aware that racism comes in all shapes, sizes, colors, pick your group. When a blanket statement is made "The whites stole our land", yes, it can be and will be interpreted as just as racist as saying that all [insert race, creed, color here] are lazy....whatever. Blanket statements paint a wide and inaccurate swath across a peoples.

There are many cultures, races, creeds, whatever represented here that have an even longer or more violent history of oppression. I could put my lineage up against yours and beat you. The Jews could beat both of us hands down if we teamed up together.

The mass migration of folks and the displacement of the indigenous folks is a long standing part of the history of
humankind. The Greeks moved out the indigenous people. In one of their mass migrations, the Celts became the first people to take and sack Rome.

The fact is that we do have to live together and we have so much to learn and to teach each other. I would love to learn more about your culture and beliefs and I know there are many others out there who do. In the time I've been here in this international community, the main thing that has always struck me is how much alike we really are despite all our differences.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about.

A Malinche Morningstar posted a post saying that there was too much hate on the board, and that we should be passive resistors. That we should stop talking about the atrocities and start feeding our people instead. Because stopping the atrocities was unimportant. She wanted us to stop talking about the atrocities and genocide started by Columbus.

The responses she got were:

It is totally possible for both needs, feeding and housing our poor and opposing the atrocities. What good does it due to feed and house the poor if the government is just going to run them off their land and away from their livihood like they are doing at Big Mountain? What good does a full belly do if the atrocities that continue to be committed continue to cause our young so much despair that they commit suicide at alarming rates?

It is totally possible for individuals like myself to donate money to something like Operation Turkey Dinner (I just got the mailing for this in today's mail) so that our poor can have meals with meat. I plan to mail off a check for $104 at this next week so that 16 people can have turkey dinners on Thanksgiving (or whatever need for food is most immediate depending on the needs). But that doesn't stop me from being able to express my outrage for the atrocities that haven't been acknowledged from the past or for the ones that continue today!

All these needs are immediate, and can be worked on at the same time!

and

Why is that ONE person thinks they should dictate what battles we should choose to fight? All battles are significant. Just as in war, there are many fronts in which to do battle.

One important battle is that battle against misinformation. For years the wasichus has spread lies about the various Indian cultures via their history books, the media, and their own racist hatred. If we do not bring forth the truths and uncover those lies, we will lose the war. For if the lies are not uncovered, they can continue, as they still do today, to commit their atrocities against our peoples and then be able to lie about it.

No, the truths need to come out!

Malinche then responded with:

It seems I am going too fast...hmmmm. Well, it also seems I offend the machismo of some. Such, I confess, was my intent because this sort of machismo has betrayed me more than once. Yes, it is a personal thing and for that I offer my sincerest regrets because I realize this is not the fault of the sioux here. So you can say "taku shni shni, Malintzin" and I will be suitably dismissed. ;)

I also recognize that I'm not "a real indian", just a pathetic Mexican but I am also the daughter of caciques tracing my lineage to well before the year of our lord 1519 in case anyone is interested. Should you be under any misapprehension regarding these things, I will remind you that the people Anahuac have been under the white man's heel for as long as any in this hemisphere. In contrast, I suspect the average lakhota would be hardpressed to name a single "fire" of the titunwan prior to 1760 or a single abuse done to them by whites prior to the 1800s.

Now, maybe you will cast your eyes to the south as once the people of Anahuac cast their eyes to the north and still do. Maybe our eyes will meet and we will see the light of common experience reflected there, provided of course that we can clear up this little matter of who is going speak for everybody.

Now, this was all and good, we had one person intending to insult, but others not taking the bait. Now Malinche posted a snooty response (which has since been deleted) about she didn't realize that all people were no choosing names that had a direct relation to who they were in real life. Malinche then refers to those of us who don't agree with here people schooled to think like a gringo (she also has now deleted the gringo post). Now gringo, depending on context, can be an insult, as it was in the case it was used here because it means a white person who knows nothing of the culture. She seems to think that speaking out against the atrocities is violent action and that we should shut up.

The responses to Malinche were:

First, who here has stated what their lineage is? Why is it assumed that we are all Sioux (which is not what they call themselves, the word Sioux, is a shortened version of an insulting name their enemies called them).

Second, why is it assumed that all of us speaking for action are male? I too favor speaking out against the atrocities, and I am quite female. What's more, I know Dreamwalker and Orenda are also female.

And for the record, I happen to be Mohawk....that's why I chose the Deganawida name because it plays directly in my history. And my tribe, and my people can remember atrocities from the 1600's for sure. Perhaps earlier if the slavers
that cruised the coasts when inland at all.

And quite personally, a course of inaction doesn't help with the attitudes in the US. It lets them continue to foster their hatred, to continue their lies, and for those haters to push off their stereotypes of us onto the unsuspecting who has no other source to draw upon. Up here, our women can also be warriors, and we could and have fought, not only in our own defense, but on the offensive as well. In fact, in my tribe, it is the WOMEN who decide if there was to be war or not, and we sure weren't a passive people.

Another response she got was:

We are also well acquainted with the lies of the whites. I'd rather be a revolutionary than side with those whites who sought to make us out as less than animals. Notice how DIAZ is a Spanish name, and how the Spanish were
the ones to bring over methods of torture still in use from the Inquisition days. And these are the same people who until recently denied the Inquisition.

I don't believe passive resistance has solved much of anything, in fact, did a big dissertation on this in college. But if you want to believe this, it's your privilege, and your problem, but I doubt very much you practice this passive resistance much when you stoop to calling all who don't cowtow to your beliefs an insult like a gringo. That isn't very passive.

One of the responses to this was:

The word gringo is an insult to me, a full blood. Gringo means a white person who knows nothing of the culture.
The choosing of ones name that is used in this forum for most people is not one that denotes their lineage, if it were, there wouldn't be so many people choosing the NA names as most people posting here are white.

I do find it interesting to note that the one person who is shocked that our monikers don't necessarily denote our lineage has chosen a quite interesting name. Why a person would choose that name is beyond me considering it's
meaning (and it isn't somebody who is willing to sacrifice themselves in the interests of the people). LOL but then, perhaps it's a statement about herself. Too much time sitting passively around the fort I guess.

Cortés and La Malinche
(guess this "gringo" shouldn't know this tidbit of information)

She also responded the post directly above as yes Malinche was a name that had a direct relationship with who she is in real life, and that she gave herself to the troops and that she was a whore and a traitor.Then we have a new person enter the fray, a person known to jump on everybody and everything if they don't conform to her narrow views, and person who I might add has been banned for up to 40 days for breaking the rules.

Kat Morningstar interjected with this:

At one time the mission statement had it that this was a place for all first peoples to come and learn. I notice that this portion of the statement has been removed. This is sad, but at least it reflects the change of attitude to this place. That all people in practice are not at all welcome here. That we could create an understanding between many nations including non-NA. (But,as one onetime leaders' homesite expressed instead you are now entering 'indian country'with a fist displayed.)?

This talk of "the white" ...or whatever indian name there is for that there seems a few. Or it would appear those who have a different perspective, and if Indian...are replied to as if they are not quite Indian enough, or have too much of the 'wrong' blood in them...and really get replied to as if they are out on the attack, where an examination of what is said does not match the interpretations of bigot, doormat and other like words.

Or taking offence at words where none obviously is intended...Is it at all possible, that at times with individuals and withpeople speaking from different cultures, that misunderstandings may just be that? Misunderstandings. That there is no need for the quick judgement and condemnation?

And could I suggest too - that this tendency to say 'the white' this or whatever, suggests all who are that colour of are of the same ilk? Or was that the purpose of that remark? And if so - I strongly state that such type of comments have no place - as do 'the NA" is this or that, have any either?

And no Im not white, but if you wish to deride me I can provide my lineage for you to disparage my people also as you have done another here. :D

Note, it was Malinche herself Indian in one of the cut and pastes quotes of what she herself typed in. Nobody accused here of being not Indian enough. Also note, the only symbols I can think of that was referred to in the first
paragraph are:

and

Neither of these are a fist. One is a hand with two fingers up to depict an Indian head with two feathers, also, this symbol of the hand like this is the peace symbol. The other is a bumpersticker with an open hand, intended to
show solidarity, not hatred or unacceptance of others. But in her arrogance, the writer doesn't wish to find out what it means, she just wants to accuse.

After Kat's accusations, and her implying that people were making racist statements (you will note that not one thing has been said that was anti-any race), this was posted:

Malinche, my dissertation would be much too long to share with anybody on this format. I don't think AS would like it too much if I even attempted to post something that is the length of a book here. Later on, I can point out several glaring instances of where passive resistance did nothing but get people killed, if not to total annihilation, but then darn close.

Also, I get the distinct impression that you all think we are physically taking up arms here, which is not the case. Passive resistance doesn't mean not being able to speak in ones defense or not being able to speak out with the truths. If it did, you could hard be said to be passively resisting since you have leveled insults by saying we 'learned our tactics from gringos' (which implies you think we act like gringos, and yeah, I do find that extremely insulting), or saying we are macho (which is another insult to females). Passive resistance is non-violent action. Since when are 'words' violent or non-passive. If speaking truths and for equal or fair treatment is so non-passive, why is it that people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. are called leaders in passive resistance?

You say we should weigh our actions, well we have. Our many of our women have been sterilized by the government
because they wanted to rid themselves of our race. Our people get murdered daily by law enforcement officials near
reservations. Indians suffer the highest rate of crimes against them than any other race, and most of them are committed by people of other races (usually white - sorry Kat but its the truth). Yet, you do not see us as a whole banding together with more than words. We speak out against the horrors because we must. Our people suffer because of the unfair treatment that still continues and these atrocities don't even get a mention in the mainstream media. The government and the racists do not want us to speak out, they want us to remain silent and docile so they may continue their reign of terror.

Like was said before, our teens commit suicide in alarming numbers because of the lack of hope. Most reservations are in remote locations, where there is little if any job base, so unemployment is high. The schools on the rez's are poor because the government doesn't deem it important enough to give even the standard schools that they promised. Boarding schools are a poor option considering the tortures and the abuses that have transpired there, not to mention that the community is a very large and important factor to our cultures. Even with reservations nearby to a decent job market, our people have a hard time getting hired because the prejudice against our peoples.

As for not being revolution, please do not presume what we have or have not been through.

As for your name, well if you want to admit you were a troop following hooker, that's your privilage. But as far as being a traitor, you'd only be a traitor if you were Indigenous and didn't support your peoples efforts against the tyrannical rule of the Mexican government.

Also, voicing your opinion on matters is one thing. However, from the tone of your posts, I get the impression you think we should just follow your lead. Well sorry, but I pick my own leaders, and you aren't going to be one of them. Also, if you want us to even objectively listen or at least tolerate what you have to say, leave out the arrogant insults. Referring to others as being like a gringo or macho is very insulting, and if you think that's going to make people be nice and listen to you, than you are sorely mistaken.

Now Kat, sorry my dear if it offends your sensibilities, but whites were the ones who stole the lands and cultures from the Indians. Does that mean that all whites are that or were that way, most certainly not. I will be the first to tell you that I am well aware that there were some whites who actively was against what the majority and the government was doing. However, their number was not that great. Many who were against the atrocities said or did nothing, thereby letting the atrocities to continue. Unfortunately, the vast majority either actively participated in the atrocities or spoke in favor of the atrocities, like for example L. Frank Baum, the creator of the Wizard of Oz who was a newspaper editor who loudly called for the total eradication of the Indians. If these truths offend you, I'm sorry, but I for one will not stop speaking the truths because somebody doesn't have the stomach for it. Learning about us means learning everything. You can't learn what makes us tick without learning the whole ball of wax. Nobody that I've seen has said that anybody here wasn't "INDIAN" enough, except Malinche in reference to herself, to which she was told that Mexicans can indeed be very Indian! The bigot reference was to Malinche for maligning those of as being macho or male when she knew full well we were female. Since Kat, you are not white, how would you like it if your people were constantly referred to as Kikes, Niggers, Gooks, or any of the other derogatory names for the various races? You'd object wouldn't you. Or if all blacks were called lazy, all Jews money grubbers, and all Asians shifty and evil? You'd object wouldn't you! Yet, today, the mores of our society still allow people to refer to all Indians as lazy, welfare sucking, drunks, that we are all stupid. (note, in the past Kat has railed viciously against anybody who did voice the truth about Morons, where in their Book of Mormon (before the latest rewrite that is, that refers to non-white or darker skinned peoples as Canaanites who defied God, so he banished them.)

So when we speak of whites, it certainly doesn't mean all whites. And if you do not want to learn all the truths and just the little that doesn't offend your sensibilities, then I question your motives. As for what you said about our 'one-time' leader, I checked both 'former' leaders and didn't see anything of what you mentioned. Not that it couldn't have been removed by a DG or God, but it sure isn't there now. But I suggest you take your problem of what was supposedly on that page with that person instead of saying it reflects all of us. Otherwise, I'd say you were being a bit of a hypocrite.

Kat then responded with:

Truth offends none Pat. Just the opposite.
And thats the point - my complaint is seeing anothers words misconstrued, misunderstood etc and the personal slurs that have followed suit. I do not see the point of taking offence if 1/ there was no intent to offend, and 2/ if the offence was based on misconstruing anothers words or intent. Ok? (I'm still looking for any slurs except those made by Malinche and now Kat)

What damage is done to an individual I ask, if people are so quick to imply that they are not only a bigot, doormat but even a whore and traitor...and this originally because of choice of name. I ask, given the worth of another is great - that there need not be so quick to cast such harsh judgement on others for so little cause. (note, Malinche called herself a whore and a traitor)

The second point is the language of racism whether out of the mouth of an Native or a White - is still, no less the language of racism. It is where you write that 'the white' this, and the Indian that. And that has been the case.
If that is not meant, great Im glad its not. Then why do it at all? There is no justification for it, simply because it is not true. And yes, I would agree with much of your conclusions on the history. And surprise, surprise I actually knew already all that which you wrote of and more. Which is WHY I feel so strongly about it. So I would tell you or anyone else where they can stick that kind of rhetoric, to their face as it were. For no other reason than it is doing no more than that which you hate others doing to you. (How does she want us to refer to the people who committed the atrocities? Little Green Men from Mars? I will also note, that Kat herself was chastised by racists for using the term whites when talking about atrocities, and she was defended when she did it, yet here she saying nobody else can use the term.)

You suppose that your race only, has suffered these things which you speak? I enquire. Down this end of the world, the country has lost over 90 percent of all TRIBES of the original peoples in this land. Totally annihilated. A country that has the oldest culture in the world over - 40-50,000 years old. And only 10 or so years ago, stopped the forced theft of the children of over 1 in 3 families ,yes, sterilization, and yes with all the rest. I need not speak of what that has done to the youth or the people, for the situation I see with interest is replicated on the other part of the planet. Hence why we other first peoples listen and learn from others. And...Pat, it was with some hope in my (I will tell you STRONG) heart, that I thought, the open sharing and learning from each other, might give more insight into wiser action, or simply support for peoples that have much in common. (who said Indians were the only ones who suffered at the imperialist and genocidal Anglos? I will also note here, Kat hasn't learned, she apparently has her own agenda, one of controlling what people can and cannot say, and that she should be the only one that can speak the truth - however, she is a pathological liar)

But it is with disappointment, I see the disparagement of another's people on this board. Comparing their course of action with another tribes, disparaging their blood mix and judgement on what they have lost. And the course they follow. Was Sacred Circles set up for this purpose, the application letter I replied to, to enter suggested otherwise. (Here she goes with her lies again, nobody has disparaged another's lineage here, somebody has disparaged their own lineage though.)

Note, I do not speak much, it hasn't been because I haven't been listening. But I will state my opinion, as will others and I see no reason why this shouldn't be a place they can do so without personal slur. (Another lie, she can't keep her mouth shut, and she forces her opinion, and the devil will pay if we all don't do a Nazi lock step to her opinions. And nobody yet has used a slur against another group of people, well except Kat.)

"And if you do not want to learn all the truths and just the little that doesn't offend your sensibilities, then I question your motives. "

Well, this is where truthful report comes in Pat. To suppose a thing, or assume the motives of another when there is no reference in their conversation - that hints of anything what you speak. This is a tactic, I too have come across. Its called casting aspersions. (I know the motives, Kat is a seriously disturbed individual who has her own agenda, to control others. )

On this thread there has been a lot of that, and followed by judgements or insinuations of bigot, whore, traitor, doormat.... Stop for a minute and think what that is doing to another. (Oh boy, case in point here where she isn't capable of simple reading and comprehension. Wonder if Kat considers what she is doing by the obvious lies she is telling.)

The reason why I joined Sacred Circles originally was that this would be a place of respect. That people could have a
voice. ALL voices. Even those you may not agree with. That it would as the letter one got stated a safe place to learn, explore etc. I submit that these slurs are not consistent with the original stated intent. And if your purpose is to have people learn - not consistent with that aim either. (How can one teach anything if people like Kat insist on us only being able to impart partial truths.)

People, I strongly state are of too great a worth, to be so quickly disparaged for no more than the time it takes to
carefully consider and think about what they are really saying. (Then Kat, we submit, shut your mouth and quit telling lies about others.)

The response Kat got to this piece of vapid rhetoric and lies was:

You deride us when we come to our own defense in our positions, yet you say nothing to the person who says this:
"Well, it also seems I offend the machismo of some. Such, I confess, was my intent because this sort of machismo
has betrayed me more than once. "

This is a very sexist statement here, an anti-male sexist statement. Here you have a person who intended to insult, yet you say nothing to her. I find this fact very interesting. Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to say people who come to their own defense yet say nothing to the person who point blank states she meant to insult?

Why is it that we cannot say what has transpired in the past at the hands of the whites? Because you feel it may be racist? You state that you already knew all this information about the atrocities. But guess what, most of the country knows little if any of this because the dominant culture refuses to let the schools, teachers, and text books speak of the truths. They call it revisionist history. Are you saying because you know this, we should just shut up regardless of the fact that the masses are totally unaware? It would be very doormatish if you insist we should not say anything of what has transpired and is still to this day transpiring. It would like us to the abused housewife, who silently says nothing despite how brutal the beating she receives become.

Also, from what I've seen, nobody has been chided for not being Indian enough - unless in the case of Malinche she chided HERSELF for not being Indian enough. As far as the 'whore' reference, I was questioning why somebody would choose a name like that considering the meaning. And Egads, Malinche said yes, that's why she choose the name, because that is what she was. I feel sorry for somebody with such poor self esteem. She talks of love, yet a person cannot love anybody if their own sense of self is so low.

I also notice you complain about a 'fist' symbol. The only thing I can think of is the AIM Logo. If this is what you are
referencing, please take a good hard look at this symbol. It's not a fist. Yes, the 'Indian head' is a hand, but notice two fingers are up for the feathers. Now hold your hand with those two fingers extended. This symbol is the PEACE symbol.

and

It this symbol the raised fist that has been mentioned?

(the AIM Logo was posted here)

If so, it is not a fist. It is indeed an indian head done by a hand/and a peace symbol. AIM, the American Indian Movement, is not a racist group, in fact, it is listed by Hatewatch as a group that fights for equal rights, an ANTI-hate group, as evidenced here:

Native American Civil Rights Organizations

A lot of aspirations have been cast here that anybody who speaks out against the atrocities is anti-white and are uttering racist epithets. That is not the case, in fact, this is typically what real racists say about anybody who fights for the rights of the oppressed. (no, I am not saying this means if you say this you are racist rather that you could have fallen victim to these racist groups vapid rhetoric). Why is it you think this is hate speech? Has anybody actually said 'all whites are the same', or 'whites are all evil' or anything where 'all whites' are the same. I haven't witnessed that if it has. To say this is what we are doing is casting aspersions yourselves.

Many of you are not aware of the growing Anti-Indian movement that is flourishing in this country. They are playing off those who unaware of their true goals. To quote:

Under the guise of "mainstream non-profit research and education organizations" and the deceptively attractive "equal rights for everyone" slogan, the Anti-Indian Movement emerged in the last third of this century. With its right-wing extremist technical help, the Movement seeks and receives support and money from unsuspecting "reservation Non-Indians" and off-reservation non-Indians.

With their own agenda, the Anti-Indian Movement's reactionaries and extremists employ tactics and slogans
calculated to exploit Indian and non-Indian fears of each other. Using the non-Indians' fear of Indians to build a power base in mainstream politics, right-wing extremists took advantage of fear and bigotry. (Yap, and Kat bought into the Anti-Indian racist propaganda big time!)

While many transplanted non-Indians now live as residents on Indian reservations, large numbers are absentee
landowners - they don't live on the reservation. Despite their absentee landowner status, the "reservation non-Indian" in the late 1960's became a new and powerful challenge to the peace and stability of Indian nations. Indian people had often heard the refrain "Why don't you go back to your reservation?" when Indian and non-Indian conflicts arose outside the reservation. It was a wrenching experience to have conflicts inside the reservation and hear that "Indians should become a part of greater society and have equal rights with everyone."

To read the whole report the quote above is pulled from, go to Anti-Indian Movement on the Tribal Frontier

This report gives a startling look at the anti-Indian movement, and how racist whites are using it to further their agenda under the guise of 'equal rights for all citizens.'

Now today, these groups are actively seeking to take what little the Indians have left. We will not be able to stop them unless we speak out. Being quiet will about these travesties will serve only the greedy racists who want it all.

Now Kat, just cannot keep her mouth shut. She has to keep going and going. People have quit this group because of her arrogance and vicious attacks.

She then comes out with this:

When I applied for this group, there is a letter you get a portion that reads like so:

Sacred Circles is a unique and special group. Applicants are not automatically accepted. As we wish to ensure a place
for all members, that allows free expression of thought, heartfelt feelings and sharing of their spirit in safety.

I would like to know, if this is still the intent of this group. We have leaders here, Dreamwalker, Pat, Callingcrow and Tiki can you make reply to this question?

Is Sacred Circles still about what it was originally set up to be? (Note, Kat was one of the founding members under the name of Pele, and when she couldn't force everybody into her narrow viewpoint, she quit under that name. She's come back on as Kat for the purposes of deception.)

Now enter a new person into the debate:

I came here at this early hour in the morning to find myself being grammed repeatedly as to the postings which have taken place today....I have read all that has been written and I can understand the emotion - the anger - the depth of feeling some have....some have felt attacked personally and each one's personal feelings is their own to carry.

I agree we must try to make an attempt to reach a common ground - at least to the point where we can express our opinions and feelings without sarcasm, or hatred or mean-spiritness.

This thread is entitled - Things That Are or Should Be.......things are - truth - is - the Native American/First
People/American Indians peoples have to this very day, continued to be repressed, murdered, and genocide continues.....we send our men and women off to war to foreign lands to stop the genocide on foreign soils - yet, here in the USA, the Dineh people are a target for genocide - their lands stolen - the Elders being pushed off lands they have dwelled upon for hundreds of years; their meager farm animals stolen or shot; their wells capped and all in the name of corporate America - in the name of Peabody Coal - profit here is the key - make the fast buck for the Injuns have some more we can take.

Yes, it is true the North American Indians of Turtle Island are not the only people to have faced genocide - mass murder - racism, prejudice or lack of opportunity and equality....but here we are .......a community of Native Americans...and we are fighting like this?

Who is right - who is wrong - you said this, or I said that....and so it goes. Much truth has been spoken here - and many strong words of hurt, anger and sarcasm, as well as words not considered thoughtfully.

I heard the plea of one who said now we take up weapons and talk of war?

How about the countless murders of Indian people (and I use the term Indian for that is the term I choose to use....as I am an American Indian woman).....that is rarely reported in the mainstream press, if ever....but let an Indian harm or murder a Euro and I will not use White here - but Euro - and it is vastly different - look at Pine Ridge - Anna Mae Aquash's hands still lie someplace in a box after all these years....and Peltier does still sit in prison for a crime we all know he did not commit.....right now, Indian people are being murdered on the streets by either a serial killer or simply one who hates...for hundreds of years the Indian people of Turtle Island have been murdered, raped, tortured, not only physically, but emotionally , spiritually and it has not ended yet.

In Minnesota - the People have been peacefully encamped in peaceful protest to protect and preserve a Sacred Site - the Mendota Site - which the state of Minnesota is bent on destroying in order to save a few minutes' commute time to a mall....in spite of this peaceful protest, the storm troopers in the suits of Officers of the Law, appointed to protect and serve all people - came in the middle of the night - so cameras could not film their deeds and they destroyed what they could of this encampment, which included a Sacred Sweat Lodge and stole or trashed a Sacred Medicine Bundle belonging to one of the peaceful protesters.

Peacefulness has been tried and tried again - but you know what - POWER IS NEVER GIVEN - IT MUST BE
TAKEN....and unfortunately this is a fact.

No one wishes there to be any bloodshed - all desire peace - but it is not come forth even as we approach a new
millennium......instead there seems to be an escalation against the First People of of this land.

I know many here have devoted countless hours to further good cause - to assist the Elders - the people in what is
happening - ie Big Mountain- Whiteclay - Mendota, etc., and I can go on and on and on....but much of this has been spoken here today....and there are many here who have been in the front lines so to speak.....and know first hand what is truth.

Yes, this is a place where we can come to share our views, our thoughts and our feelings, but there is a saying, "if you
cannot stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen." and sometimes things get heated up and sometimes we as humans are entitled to that, for the injustices we have suffered and of that we have seen and witnessed.

I know many here who have taken up the cause of Indigenous people all over this globe....regardless of color or tribal affiliation. Who have devoted countless hours to doing all they can to stand beside their brothers and sisters in an attempt to stop these terrible injustices.

If someone wishes to put a logo on their lodge that says you are now on Indian Land what is wrong with that? I feel they have the right to do so......for the land was taken by force by the Euros who gave little thought to the rights of the First People - despite the fact they claimed to have come to this land to find freedom of religion and a peaceful good life.

AIM? It stands for American Indian Movement and it is not one filled with simply violence - it is countless people all over doing what they can in their own way to help stop the injustices - to stop the racism - to stop the murders and genocide of a people. It is any person who works for the cause of the American Indian. Even our brother Leonard Peltier has stated, AIM is for the person who gets involved and works for the betterment of the Native American/First People/American Indians. And this work done by so many - does not mean violence or the taking up of weapons and the shedding of blood. But as a people must we continue to sit back and be slaughtered? Again, there is a time for one to stand up and fight and the fight must be done and unfortunately blood shed is sometimes the result....but power is never given - it must be taken - this has always been the way since time began.

One spoke truth here when the writer mentioned the high suicide rate of Native American/First People/Indian American youth - truth of high unemployment and little opportunity to develop job opportunities for the people.......spoke truth that in the eyes of many, we are seen as lazy, welfare leaches...that drink all day and lay lazily in the sun - with no dignity or hope. Stereotypical racism - it is REAL IT IS HERE AND IT STILL PREVAILS.

YET....the American Indian has fought for the United States of America in its wars more than any other minority combined and even as the First People of this land, we are treated as the true underclass - barely noticed, as we still watch, as others who came long after us - shout loud for their rights and are noticed and listened to and yet the Indian people? We opened our mouths - we try peaceful protest and in come the feds and the storm troopers and tanks and guns and threats and intimidation. They are not above pushing Elders around - nor women or children - nor murdering people and covering it up.

These are facts - these are truths - but again, you will not find this in any mainstream press article - you will not find this on the National news - you will not find this as important to this government who still views its First People as a national threat.

Yes we get heated- yes because our hearts are heavy with the sadness of what many of us have seen and witnessed. We cry out at what is done to our Mother Earth as another writer pointed out here - She is fighting back - against the wounds to her - the pollution - the raping of natural resources - the killings of the natural habitat - the wildlife, etc.

So, how can one expect not to be disturbed, angry, and filled with rage at times? Hundreds of years...IN THIS LAND WE SPEAK OF TURTLE ISLAND.

But let us try to get back to meeting at a common ground once again. Let us try to exchange our feelings and viewpoints without the sarcasm? And for those who are overly sensitive and feel under attack - speak direct - speak clearly - speak with your heart and walk your walk and talk your talk and then you will be understood and respected.

There are those here who have spoken truth - brutal truth - but truth nevertheless and it is a truth some cannot hear or understand or even want to know about.

But there is much truth in many words written here.

Today is a new day - let's try to start it as a new beginning on this thread - this discussion.

We can, at least, try....and I am not a god - nor anyone special, simply an Indian woman...with my own opinions and
feelings and some may agree, some do not know - and some don't care.

If I can't take the heat, I will leave the kitchen...but I'm here for the long haul.

At this point, three people for sure quit not only this group, but Ancient Sites as well. When one left, this gram (Instant Message) was sent to everyone online at the time. The message said simply that this person was leaving Ancient Sites because of their continued support for those people who are participating in the spiritual genocide of Native Americans by allowing New Agers to post information about New Age and also say it is Native American in origin. And also that Ancient Sites continues to allege that when people speak about atrocities committed against Native Americans, and the people that committed those atrocities are mentioned as being whites, that they support the racists who whine about us being reverse racist. And that one person who whines the loudest about this was online, but no name of this person was mentioned.

Well, that person online was Kat, and she responded with this:

I asked a question is Sacred Circles still a " place for all members, that allows free expression of thought, heartfelt feelings and sharing of their spirit in safety. " This is what was stated on the application letter. The answer one gets from Callingcrow appears to be a qualified 'sort of'. ?

Let me tell you what I think, I know I am nobody, a leader asked of me here: "Who are you?" You have to be somebody, to be able to talk here? Too bad. This place once was a place that all were of equal worth.

Firstly:
Yes, this is a place where we can come to share our views, our thoughts and our feelings, but there is a saying, "if you
cannot stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen." and sometimes things get heated up and sometimes we as humans
are entitled to that, for the injustices we have suffered and of that we have seen and witnessed. (But hey, don't dare mention who it was that committed those atrocities.)

No matter what we have suffered or witnessed

When all that, so colours our vision that we can not 'hear', or see what is in front of our noses in truth. Here and now -what people are saying in print. When we are quick to slam people as hypocrites, bigots, whores, traitors, racist apologists, racist mouthpieces or jump to fit a stranger to some stereotype-- you are not justified. As it has been falsehood. Concocted falsehood for the excuse to vent our anger or hurt - not caring that we are taking people down, who are doing no more than enquiring, seeking discussion, telling what they have experienced. (Here she goes with her lies again. Wonder if she can read, understand, and remember "See Dick run. Run Dick run." and then not lie about what was said there?)

Speak, educate of the truths of what is happening in this world - but you let your anger at all that injustice to so take you to abuse others? - and I take issue with those who would say being called these things is 'over sensitive' . Its is nothing of the sort - it is demeaning and treating another human being as if they were less worth than yourself.. (Yep, she's being oversensitive, not to mention not being able to read)

And why is that so wrong?, because the ones you have abused whether you like it not, have already experienced the same things as you. Are the kindred through experience to you. (A kindred spirit wouldn't tell you to shut up about it.)

You know when a Maori war party went to do battle - they would warn the surrounding allies what path they would take. So their would be no 'fish caught across the bow'. ( A fish thrown by the wake of the canoe across the bow is killed) That there would be no body who accidently would be in their pathway, and being so, get killed because of the heat that was in the warriors as they went to battle - that would make the warriors see 'targets' of any who would cross their paths. That there would be no innocent to die needlessly. (Seems Kat forgot to warn her 'allies'.)

You have in front of you people who have listened to you for a long time, and have supported your cause with work and money, the cause of the NA. Even we who are not NA ourselves. But you on your war path, ...and it is a good 'battle' to fight to bring the truths out of what is happening in America. It was what I came to learn and support. However how quick you are to make targets of people because they 'cross' your path with their experiences, with the things they have seen and heard. And you attack. ( And note, you run when you are challenged to prove your words. Are you so afraid? ) (Nobody was targeted, until Kat came in firing away because she can't read.)

There was one time that Sacred Circles sought to have *twinkie hunters* people who would hunt down the Indian
wannabees, and new age posers etc. I fought it, you know why? Because when you have a mentality of looking for 'reds under the beds' as it were, you have a tendency to *see* them around every corner. A innocent ignorant comment, a repeated ignorant 'given' - *identifies* this one or that one in a "racist group", to be 'put in place'. To be made to pay for the crimes of others. And how it spreads this looking for targets, that no one can contradict you, because you are then 'they'. (Here she is referencing this page: Are you a Twinki because she is too stupid to know that Indians used humor to teach, even when it was hard truths they were having to teach. But that is and never was part of this discussion, she ASSumed this is was being talked about by the person who quit and sent the system wide gram.)

You have not told your allies you are on the war path, so you take up your weapons and say, quote: "blood will flow",
when they 'cross' your way. (Guess she's never heard of a metaphor.)

And before we go on, as if I know not what I speak of yes, actually I know of rape, I know of violence, swung around by my ankles to have my head smashed into walls, knives to slash legs, run over by a cop, I know of many things such as these. Many many things that I need not speak of because, its a common thing. And in this part of the world there is NOTHING you have not experienced that has not be done in this continent, I am in now. Except, you are even so more louder than the people of this land. And that says little doesn't it. (I see, she wants to compare the outright murder of 20 million Indians in what is now the continental US to her country where they honor and accept her people.)

Now a personal comment Pat. My other name on this site is Pele. I took on Kat so I could have some peace from the hate grams I got from anti-polys and anti-LDS on this site. That I could relax and share my own culture. Now I get broadcast snipes from you, and these others, and you all run. (What snipes, is she so paranoid to think that everybody would know it's her that was being talked about when no name was mentioned. LOL, she did a good job of pointing to herself as the culprit. And here the truth comes out. She wishes to deceive, and hide. Guess she forgot that she could share her own culture, and if she was getting nasty-grams, she could hide her online status from all others, and option all people have at AS, or she could place the harasser on ignore, another option all people have. She just wanted to deceive...because she didn't join as KAT to the groups that the so-called harassers were members of.)

I have supported you strongly in the past. I did so because I have great respect for you, and great aroha for your HEART. To stand up to the baiters, to know your stuff. To not sit down. These things I strongly endorse. You, I know are a good woman. (You call this support? When the person you are deriding is the one who has come to your defense repeatedly?)

But in this thing - I will take you on anytime any place anywhere, away from the 'flagrant censors' where you seek to make small another human being, simply because they disagreed with you. And than you can not make reply - but run. (Yeah, we all know she just can't shut your mouth, and she is well known on AS as a habitual trouble maker, and that she sees demons where none exist. Too bad she can't take a good hard look in the mirror and see that is herself that is the person trying to make others small.)

To this on your site: "Since people object to words and say we cannot speak the truth because if offends them and
they don't want to feel guilty about the past, then there is no other choice. They will get their way, now we will have
a war with actual weapons!" (Again, she's too stupid to know what a metaphor is).

You can actually speak. But I will always object to racism - by habit, and always to people who would sooner grab a gun and shoot you than - speak. Are you so quick to want to have people die, even the allies that are out there? (Nobody said anything about people actually dying. And if she is so dead against racism, why doesn't she shut her mouth, or better yet, get a lobotomy. And if she is an ally, who needs enemies?)

Here is a gram that Kat sent:

Message From: Kat MorningStar
TO:
Time: 11:14

COWARD.
Put your lights on. You would abuse a young girl raped and beaten
in war - who only expressed what she had saw occur - you deride,
ridicule and abuse. And any who DO NOT tell you to stop telling
the truth you have not the guts to face or to reply to. Run away -
turn your tail and run.
I have got racism on both sides of the fence here, from the likes of
you Pat and the likes of some of the whites, how is it you sound
exactly the same. (note, Malinche didn't say she was raped, she said she gave herself to the soldiers, and the only person abusing anybody is Kat!)

Kat/Pele then got this response:

I have been named here - and Kat - a/k/a/ Pele stated words I never said...and so, I say speak truth - not that of forked tongue.

I came here - knowing none of the discussion that had gone on here - but I am glad now I see peace - and understanding and calmer minds have made their words know here and this is truth.

Upon arrival here - I was immediately grammed and repeatedly grammed by Kat - a/k/a/ Pele - demanding I do something about the warmongers and racists here...and I consistently said I had not read the words and needed time to do so - before I would say anything......I saw anger here - heated discussion - but now I see healing, as many have written...and I think, sometimes some of us get too filled with ourselves to be able to see objectively. Some see racists in every corner and that is not the case with many words written here about the Native American/First People/American Indians.

We write about issues; we write about past wrongs and atrocities - but this does not mean we hate - when we mention the white man; this does not mean we are accusing an entire race of people - by God, I'd be condemning myself - for I have white blood, Indian blood and Cape Verdean/African roots.....but I follow the ways of my Ancestors the Cherokee....

When our Black brothers and sisters speak of past atrocities and the evils of slavery and what it did to their lives, they speak of the White man's atrocity by the mere creation of slavery and the kidnapping and torture of the people - but of course they do not include the entire White race.

Some people are often too overly sensitive and think words may be directed toward them only - when this is not the case....

So, all I ask is if I am to be quoted here and named, at least be truthful - at least post words that were said, not what was in your head.

To which Kat/Pele responded with:

Well Callingcrow the only direct reference I made of you is this:

"The answer one gets from Callingcrow appears to be a qualified 'sort of'. ? "

I have not quoted you or said you have said anything at all. The answer in your prior post to my question whether Sacred Circles was still a place where people could express there thoughts and feelings in safety, I got from your post was 'yes' no longer. More a 'sort of' ie: its a safe place but don't be oversensitive.

The only words I quoted from you, which I did not state was yours was: "Who are you?" - (note the quotation marks.)

Number two, as I said in my gram, your first gram did not come through. As a citizen when you replied to my I think second gram, I had run out of quota. And can only reply if you send to me. And since you insisted on speaking with caps, and querying " "Who are you?" etc, I replied to that instead. (While I know this example isn't the case, I will point out that a person who is a citizen and is allowed to send only 10 grams per day, if responding to a patron, you can send more than those 10 grams. And if you are at your limit, you can only respond, but if you keep a gram you received open - don't close that window - you can repeatedly respond off of that one gram.)

And I admit to a perverse sense of humour that found it funny that you criticised me for repeatedly gramming to you, which I could not do unless you replied. Though I did in the end ask you to go away several times. Unfortunately the ignore buttons don't work anymore, thats why.

Firstly when Sacred Circles was started I remember one of the main reasons it was started was for this specific thing: That it would be a place that anyone could speak there heart, there thoughts where they would not be berated for it, that they would be treated with the highest esteem. And this thing - to speak freely. Was one of the underlying reason why the application letter thingo was started and why its a protected group. Because of experiences elsewhere on this site. And one of the intents was that this group would be different. Remember that Dreamwalker? (Wonder why she is berating people then - oops, I forgot, rules don't apply to her.)

Secondly, I have grammed you and Dreamwalker, as leaders. Because to be honest, I sincerely thought you guys would care. To date Dreamwalker has not replied. And I am replying to your posts. Pat sends me very colourful hate mail, so I kind of get where shes coming from LOL.

True education can't happen if you supress others through bullying by name calling, evil speaking or looking to misconstrue or misinterpret what they say. (Then why does she bullying people into only expressing what she wants to be heard?)

Now, Im going to tell you a story. A number of years ago, my friend Gloria, a white woman who I was boarding with and her daughter. Got harrassed by a young Maori man when she was going to her night classes. He had cut her off in the car or some such thing, she had complained about it and he got livid over it. Got out of the car, verbally abused her, even followed her into the classroom and ranted to her in front of the entire class.

First personal abuse, but in the main deriding her because of her race It was evident to him that she had done what she had done because he was Maori, (so it was to him). He harrassed her for 5 days straight. Blamed her for the sicknesses and death of his tribe, for him not being able to find work, for his ancestors...you name it. Now, he had a girl friend in the class a really lovely Maori girl, who felt terrible about this and asked Gloria if they could sit together all three and sort things out.

I don't know how it happened but the chap ended up 'inviting' himself to the house that night. Gloria when she came home was a pack of nerves. But I said I'd be there all evening. When he first came to the door, he didn't even wait to be invited in, he just barged in. And was about to open his mouth, (at one point Gloria was scared he would be violent). Then I came into the hallway. Which stopped him in his tracks. (Im Maori also). Stopped his you "white racists are all the same" spiel. Surprised him.

I shook his hand, and said to Gloria if she was making tea ( that got her into the kitchen to sort her nerves out) and acted towards him and the girlfriend as if they were normal welcomed guests. People are creatures of habit - so he automatically took the seat shown and we made small talk. For a half an hour or so.

Now, he stayed calm for a while, but he got on the 'the white man did this' and they did that...and pretty soon he was looking to punch someone out. At that point, we were blessed, for the Spirit was strong with us and at that point when his heat incensed frustration returned. I told him to "be still". The spirit carried those words unnaturally strong that he was stunned, as was Gloria and the girl. And I walked him out in a bit of a daze. And they left. (She's comparing apples and oranges here, because all was being talked about was the truth, nobody was called a racist until KAT entered the scene. )

Now, it appears to me that many of you are missing the much repeated point. Where you think that all the wrong acts done by 'the white man' makes it okay, to condone personally abusing a individual who did no more than disagree over a point of history. Who gave her reference author and text (which note was discredited cause 'all anthropoligists are the racists chief liars' and 'Diaz was SPAINISH' soooo...) HALLO?? (The only abuse that was going on was Malinche's insults and Kat/Pele's deriding people because she can't read. The Diaz comment will be addressed below.)

You ignore that fact that everybody actually strongly agrees that the truth of the past must be spoken. Everyone. So
the continually ignoring or not noticing our agreement on this point - tells me something is missing in how you are seeing this. Because we have stated this more than once.

You take a simple thing - personal attack, hateful communication and continually explain that kind of behaviour away as bringing the truth of the past out. That it even is to be condoned or to be expected. (Nobody attacked, until Kat showed up, although Malinche did use hateful communication.)

No. Personal attack is just personal attack - it is that simple. There is nothing -okay- about it. And telling the truth of the past can be done without including that. Period. In fact it is more likely to come out with cool heads, reasoned debate and rational querying of our sources than automatically assumptions that things are false because of
the nationality or a generalization that all (insert whatever you like here)_______________ are false. Generalizations, stereotype - sorry language of pre-judice. Is it not? (Again, it was reasoned debate, Kat's temper tantrums in print are the ones that are from uncool heads.)

And if hot heads get carried away, they do no good thing. Because they become totally blind to whats happening in the here and now. (And I do understand that pain, but it is still not justified.) (Ok then Kat, take your own advice and shut up, you're a hot head!)

To justify speaking hatefully to another because of the past actions of others. Note, think it through logically. You are
making someone pay for the actions of other people. Venting anger. Venting frustration, I can understand that but not to the point where you stop seeing what people have actually said or not. (????, she must be looking in the mirror, she's the one not really seeing what is being said.)

I can see where that young mans logic was, angry at the wrong of all those white people, this white woman had crossed his path. BAM - he let her have it. Im sure there would be many Maori who would agree - the attitude: quite understandable that people would get a little heated considering, and they basically would condone it or turn a blind eye.

Which is frankly what I strongly feel and see is what you guys are doing when you condone or trivilize that kind of
behaviour or thinking.
And it is utter Bull Manure.

Demeaning anyone to set them up as a scapegoat (bearing the sins of others)-wrong. And if that appears to you a noble thing. Because you do it in the aid of truth. No, sorry. Still wrong. (LOL, hey Kat, look in the mirror! You are the guilty one here.)

Bringing forth truth is great and a damn good thing. A NEEDFUL thing. But it can be done without suppressing others to speak by using abuse. Or discouraged from saying their piece also. (So why is she defending the person who told us to quit speaking about the truth with vapid rhetoric, lies, etc. She's the one discouraging others from speaking thief piece.)

And further we don't have to continually engage in this "white man" this or that rhetoric, which makes generic the actions of white people as if applying to all. You do not like it when the boot is on the other foot (particularly if the context is negative). (Ok, we can have the code word for whites to be KAT, since they both commit flagrant atrocities and don't want to see the truth about themselves.)

Why? Because you stop treating people in front of you as people. Individuals. And you just don't hear what they say, you assume you already know it all. Hence why anyone disagreeing on the smallest of issues is treated as a target, treated to personal attack. Justifying it in a sense that this person gets it coz she's an example of all those others out there. "All those that oppose Orenda US." (Note, in her post, ORENDA was crossed out. Also note, she's the only one assuming she knows it all.

And therefore made an example of : Fish caught across the bow.

Now Kat/Pele got this response:

Uhhmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a personal attack? Our Elder has a life and a family to care for out there in the physical world, on top of being Queen of Machu Picchu. She can't be everywhere at once. Calling Crow has spoken as a leader of this group. Give Dreamwalker a break. She's only human after all.

Secondly, I have grammed you [Calling Crow] and Dreamwalker, as leaders. Because to be honest, I sincerely thought you guys would care.

And who says they don't? Calling Crow has responded to the situation as a leader, but keep in mind they are only human. Just like the rest of us.

Okay, anyone who disagrees with what I'm about to say, please enlighten me (without flaming me, if you don't mind
*grin*). When we say "the white man" on this board, no one is intending to use it as a racial slur, as one would use terms like "injun" or "nigger". We are not saying "all white men do (insert disgusting, horrifying racist atrocity here)". We are simply using "the white man" to describe the particular group of white men who have and still are doing this. Perhaps it would be easier to understand if we could use specific terms like "BIA Agents" or "Klansmen" or some such thing, but the fact of the matter is, it's not that simple. Some racist hypocrites are not even white men. Many, many white men are the farthest thing from racist. It's a very sticky thing to define.

Let me ask you something, Kat. (Mind you, I intend no disrespect here. I'm merely curious.) Since you don't like the term "white man"...what term would you use to describe those who have herded us like cattle, raped our women and corrupted our children, forced us onto reservations and done every other thing imaginable (and unimaginable) in an attempt to wipe us out, and our culture right along with it?

Demeaning anyone to set them up as a scapegoat (bearing the sins of others)-wrong.
And if that appears to you a noble thing. Because you do it in the aid of truth. No, sorry. Still wrong.

You're right on both counts here, Kat. People should be treated as individuals, regardless of where they came from or who they are associated with, or anything else that would lead anyone to sterotype them, and thereby dehumanize them.

But I see that that has stopped on this thread. What goes on outside this Sacred Circle must be dealt with outside the Circle, where it belongs. (Note, this person is an ardent support of Kat/Pele, and would turn a blind eye to Kat/Pele's outright prejudice.)

Another response Kat got was this:

In the wee hours of the morning, this writer came to AS to check and see first of all, if I could get in with all the recent renovations, we have all experienced difficulty in gaining access to the site. Well, tired as I was, exhausted, really, as I run a mailing list and am involved in more than petty personal arguments...I immediately receive a gram from someone I do not know, but who later reveals herself - she came under cover of an alias to demand, demand demand and I had no clue as to what she was referring to, as I had not been able to be here and read everything and be everywhere else either. Politely, I responded to her demands and grams....and these are facts - we do, after all, have our gram logs, but not to be shared here - and I come as Calling Crow not under the cover of another alias or name.

I am named here and accused of things I did not say or do......and this is not suppose to be the case either...but we have one problem - and that is this:

YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CANNOT FORCE HIM TO DRINK.

Therefore.....no matter what one might say or not say with some individuals they only HEAR what they wish to hear; SEE what they wish to see; and GET ALL UPSET OVER what they want to be upset over.

YOU CANNOT BEAT A DEAD HORSE EITHER. And boy, this poor ole horse that has been hit upon again again here by one particular individual - he is so beaten now, he's a bloodly pulp.

I will not defend myself for I have nothing to defend myself against......I do not have these problems of overreaction - anger - rage - extreme emotionalism......and hate.

I have learned that when one overreacts so strongly it is due to somewhere deep inside of them a sore spot has been
touched; a cord, baggage that they must deal with and therefore, since they cannot or unable to do so - they take out their rage on others. They see - hear - and believe what they wish to and no one can change their minds.

I find it extremely amusing to be called a racist. But again, they see - hear - believe what they want and so I am not about to go around beating a dead horse, or forcing one to drink when it does not wish to do so.

So, Calling Crow comes to Sacred Circles now and I bring with me a smudge pot and in this smudge pot is the Sacred
Sage, Sweetgrass, Cedar and Tobacco and I smudge myself - and I share the Sacred Smoke with all who wish and as I
spoke before the peace has returned, or so I thought.

I pray to the Four Directions - to the Creator and Grandfather Eagle - to Grandfather Sun, Grandmother Moon , Father Sky and Mother Earth.....to heal this place - to heal those who need this healing and pray that we get on with more important things than personal issues.

Kat comes on and says this:

A quick post to 'the white man'thingo because I find it the best criticism thus far...

Me: And further we don't have to continually engage in this "white man" this or that rhetoric, which makes generic the actions of white people as if applying to all. You do not like it when the boot is on the other foot (particularly if the
context is negative). (Yeah, she sure didn't like it when she got bashed by racists for doing the exact thing she is complaining about. Guess Kat/Pele went to the 'Dark Side")

You: Okay, anyone who disagrees with what I'm about to say, please enlighten me (without flaming me, if you don't
mind *grin*). When we say "the white man" on this board, no one is intending to use it as a racial slur, as one would
use terms like "injun" or "nigger". We are not saying "all white men do (insert disgusting, horrifying racist atrocity
here)". We are simply using "the white man" to describe the particular group of white men who have and still are doing this. Perhaps it would be easier to understand if we could use specific terms like "BIA Agents" or "Klansmen" or some such thing, but the fact of the matter is, it's not that simple. Some racist hypocrites are not even white men. Many, many white men are the farthest thing from racist. It's a very sticky thing to define.

You: Let me ask you something, Kat. (Mind you, I intend no disrespect here. I'm merely curious.) Since you don't like
the term "white man"...what term would you use to describe those who have herded us like cattle, raped our women and corrupted our children, forced us onto reservations and done every other thing imaginable (and unimaginable) in an attempt to wipe us out, and our culture right along with it?

Let me reply to this, because earlier on in the year I used the term “the white man” over at the Spiritual Education Board under Native Fires BB. And I was using it in the context of when the white man arrived in New Zealand etc etc. Several people took offence at this as "racist conotations". And I replied to them stating that was not my intent and said where I was coming from in using this term. What could we call them but ‘white’ man? Although I prefered our word; Pakeha which means ‘strange man’or stranger. Other man as opposed to normal or everyday man, ourselves. In other words just delineating a group.

And on this board, there are times when this phrase is used in the same way just as you are describing above. I don’t have a problem. But Miikwan, and this is where I find it sticky also, and where people get it clear I am NOT calling people racist for using the term ‘the white man’. But, when in the course of the conversation the term becomes tied to stereotype or generalization, than yes, I think its stepped over the line into – prejudicial language. And that has occured and I am quite happy to quote word passages - so we can examine it objectively, fair? (Nobody was using it as a generalization. Nobody said all whites. Note, the person who flamed her for using the white man term was a Sari Curious. Sari when confronted, did the same thing as Kat is doing now, said generalizations were being used.)

Then Kat/Pele responds later in the day with:

"What goes on outside this Sacred Circle must be dealt with outside the Circle, where it belongs."

Great. However Miikwan, what happens on the SC BB, or SC related is what we have in the main been dealing with.

First thing first. Miikwan, respectfully, and I mean that :).And affectionately I appreciate that you actually reference my words by reposting them and then make reply. This is good, I know what I mean when I write a thing. I often don't know what another is talking about, (or can only assume) when I get a interpretation of what I am supposed to have said. So thank you. (Oh Liar Liar! She doesn't know what she's talking about, heck, she can't even read what's clearly posted.)

To this: Me: " Secondly, I have grammed you and Dreamwalker, as leaders. Because to be honest, I sincerely thought
you guys would care."...the rest of the paragraph not quoted: To date Dreamwalker has not replied. And I am replying to your posts. Pat sends me very colourful hate mail, so I kind of get where she's coming from LOL. "

You: "And who says they don't? Calling Crow has responded to the situation as a leader, but keep in mind they are only human. Just like the rest of us. "

Exactly, Miikwan, who says they don't? That was the original assumption....but now given response I ask.

Me: Firstly when Sacred Circles was started I remember one of the main reasons it was started was for this specific
thing: That it would be a place that anyone could speak there heart, there thoughts where they would not be berated
for it, that they would be treated with the highest esteem. And this thing - to speak freely. Was one of the underlying
reason why the application letter thingo was started and why its a protected group. Because of experiences elsewhere
on this site. And one of the intents was that this group would be different. Remember that Dreamwalker?

You: Uhhmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a personal attack?

A personal attack how so? Is it asking the intent of this group that is 'the personal attack', or is it "Remember that
Dreamwalker?" Dreamwalker is the leader of this group. And it is in that capacity that I am asking. Particularly having been a founder of the group, I am aware of the original intent. Unless I remember wrongly. Hence I will ask. There are four leaders, I have had replies from three, they are at variance and some contradiction in reply to each other. It would be nice to know the lay of the land as it were. And given the variance maybe a consensus, so you know where people stand. ie: As I mentioned, I note the 'First peoples of all nations' part was removed from the mission statement - I wondered about that, why?

Going off on a tangent - I remember that's how I got 'sold' as it were to be a founding member. That the focus would be on the NA. But, this group would provide a place whereby first peoples of all nations could find common ground with the NA. And not indigenous only, but those today, reaching back to their 'first people' roots, to their heritage, culture....history. See? A place to stand for all people to find common ground. To find underlying truths, to remain who we are, but come out stronger from the exchange and through that exchange gain a greater respect and knowledge of the other. Now....maybe people feel confronted and affronted that I ask, but I will ask what's the story now?

Now, if I have queried what Sacred Circles is about. I can do that. I'm a member. For I perceive things that are
happening/end have not been consistent to what the stated purpose as given, re: mission statement, the application letter, history of its founding and the type of posts given here.

If I want to know a thing I will go to the top, I am running under the assumption that the best people to ask the intent of this group is to ask the leaders. True they can reply or not. But I will let them speak for themselves, or assign someone to speak for themselves. I will not assume another will speak for them unless so stated. If they reply I have an answer, if I ask a question and they do not reply - that too is an answer.

Now, secondly people are saying " speak of peace ". I have to say, I don't think it is enough to speak of peace, but to make peace. I have noticed in life, almost two types of making peace. Where you have dissension, or disagreement, you can remove those who don't agree with the majority, or make them shut up, shout them out, or remove the right for them to speak at all. This than creates a 'peace' of sorts. (Assimilation is an example of this kind of 'peace' on large or small scale). Because might or one's opinion rules - even the instruments of peace can be used in this fashion, to make this kind of 'peace'. (How interesting, especially since this is what she does, bullies and badgers others to shut them up.)

But I have seen in action, other kinds of peace, where you strive for an understanding and allow for many different voices.

The first peace frankly I find false because there is no cessation of 'againstness', there's no harmony, there is no
understanding. You have just made people you don't want to listen to, shut up. Or made them into yourselves. (Bingo, but this is the tactic she uses.)

The acceptance of name calling as merely over sensitivity from those name called etc, if this is the case is not consistent with the original intent for all to be treated with respect. I observe, that the second way, depends not on changing or demeaning people but seeking first to understand and than finding common ground, where you can have unity and diversity combined. One is surface appearances only, the other goes deep. And the other is dependent that there be an agreement of respect, for the other, a meaning that word is to hold others in true esteem. And that requires understanding... (Again, she is the only one trying to demean anybody else).

And then Kat/Pele posts this:

Callingcrow, why is it that it matters that I am also Pele? I am me. As I said in my post: 'Applying the heat' :
"My other name on this site is Pele. I took on Kat so I could have some peace from the hate grams I got from anti-polys and anti-LDS on this site. That I could relax and share my own culture."

Leaders in this group have several personae on this board as have other members, I have but one. I am still the same
person, and it is Kat, that is a member of this group. A member of the group gramming a leader of the group regarding the group. What matters: who I am? I returned to this group on request from a leader of this group, but I did so as Kat. I felt it matters not. I did feel if I told you I was Pele, you would stop gramming me. Which you did. (Yeah, because we all know what a psycho you are Pele).

"I am named here and accused of things I did not say or do......and this is not suppose to be the case either"

Okay, what? I replied to similar comments in your "THE TRUTH SHOULD BE SPOKEN" as follows:

Well Callingcrow the only direct reference I made of you is this: "The answer one gets from Callingcrow appears to be a qualified 'sort of'. ? " I have not quoted you or said you have said anything at all. The answer in your prior post to my question whether Sacred Circles was still a place where people could express there thoughts and feelings in safety, I got from your post was 'yes' no longer. More a 'sort of' ie: its a safe place but don't be oversensitive.

The only words I quoted from you, which I did not state was yours was: "Who are you?" - (note the quotation marks.)

So, if there is another thing or things said on this bulletin board, you say I have re: you falsely. Please quote and I will
reply. Fair?

Now as to things said in gram re the following:

...I immediately receive a gram from someone I do not know, but who later reveals herself - she came under cover of an alias to demand, demand demand and I had no clue as to what she was referring to, as I had not been able to be here and read everthing and be everywhere else either. Politely, I responded to her demands and grams....and these are facts - we do, after all, have our gram logs, but not to be shared here - and I come as Calling Crow not under the cover of another alias or name.

Things that make you go "hmmmm"..... Callingcrow, if you wish to refer to private conversation and your version of the events okay. I will reply. But I would prefer to deal with facts also - so on the basis you share the grams beginning to end - and that you if I look at what is written has been 'edited' (lets suppose :) that you will have a trusted person, that I also agree on, check that those grams are so. Go ahead. Than maybe we can come to an understanding based not on hearsay - but facts.

_I_ remember a heated person at the other end, shouting at me, asking me "Who are you?", who when I said I appreciate you care, and "relax, whenever" on when you could come back to me called me "condescending" lol....etc etc. If you wish private conversation public - than lets have the facts.

Otherwise, we can if this is a more personal issue between you and I - review the gram log between us - and say where we are coming from. And maybe make peace. What say you? Either way my hand is open.

Because if these words you speak, alude to me: I will not defend myself for I have nothing to defend myself against......I do not have these problems of overreaction - anger - rage - extreme emotionalism......and hate.

I have learned that when one overreacts so strongly it is due to somewhere deep inside of them a sore spot has been
touched; a cord, baggage that they must deal with and therefore, since they cannot or unable to do so - they take out
their rage on others. They see - hear - and believe what they wish to and no one can change their minds. . I find it
extremely amusing to be called a racist....

......If such ill is spoken of me publicly - than I will challenge you - Publicly.

And Callingcrow .... I just have.

I am Pele, (the name given) of the Ngati Kahungunu and the Rangitane. Mokopuna to Ariki, Hariata Arini Anihana. Also nickname in RL: "Kat".

.....KIA ORA!!!....LOL ... .AROHA nui

To which Kat the response:

O'siyo....One has challenged me here again and again, and I will not participate in this continuation of needless argument with unreasonable people.

It is a waste of good energy and helps no one except to fuel the flames of someone's angry heart.

Again I will not defend myself here - to anyone, nor will I use people's names, as this is not the way we are suppose to
write on these board - accusations made against people and naming them, without speaking directly one on one to that
person before taking up the sword here.

I came here yesterday with the Sacred Smudge Bowl - Sage, Sweetgrass, Cedar and Tobacco - those who are willing to share the Sacred Smoke and Purification are welcome to share - those who perpetuate anger, arguing and the like, may choose not too.......I only say, if arguments by the same person have been conducted on other boards with other groups, then it seems likely to me that an individual who admits this, finds it easier to war with people then deal in peace.

For this writer, I will say no more.....prior to this I have always found Sacred Circles a good place and there may have
been times where the discussions became heated, but I never seen such an extent as this and it truly saddens me that one will continue on and on and beat a dead horse. Let it rest in peace and get on with some positive work here - not a continuation of keeping the fires of hatred and anger going.

Peace to all and have a good day.

Now Pele/Kat comes out with this

Kat stands, takes breath - *Ka ora* (its life) and pulls the mantle of Ariki closely around her spirit.

* The aroha nui (great love) my Ariki, my Grandmother 'round my soul..aue. * Her quiet thought.

She closes her eyes and breathes in - out. She enters "Sacred Circles". Thickness descends... her chest constricts, a crease forms between her brow, her shoulders tense. Breathes in.

A place of shouting, heavy smoking, stick waving, and false words... false sentiment and false accusation.....harsh uncaring... *Sacred Circles*. Inside herself, she shakes her head.

*...Aue..* She lets out on soft breath.

She presses a palm hard to her forehead as the thought arises....

*What is this place?....How is it if an evil thing be said of you - they can not point it out? - and yet they insist vehemently it is so?...And what they accuse you of...they do the self same thing??!!...* Each hand goes to either side of her head as she massages her temples. (Tsk, tsk. We sure can't point out if she says evil things. Again she is seeing demons where they don't exist, and ignoring the demon that is inside of her.)

Her mind clears....*How is it too*...she thinks sadly ...*that these words I spoke once in expectant hope...feel of dry ashes in my mouth....* (It was more like "You damn well better do as I say.")

..."When Arthur made his table - he thought much as to why it would be a round table. And although he be King, and some say the greater amongst them all. The table was round. So that all would have equal voice - and regardless of title - all would have equal seating. (Weeee, she cites information on a ficticious character from a ficticious episode.)

And thus I feel it is so when we meet in a circle.

We have equal voice and equal seating - in a circle when we speak - we speak facing all. Our words do not go to the air - but go between us in dialogue. That in dialogue we share and grow. (Yeah right, Pele/Kat thinks she is above everybody else - "holier than thou". She wants constantly to be top dog, top billing.)

If they are words from our heart - they touch the same. If of our mind - the same - if they are of experience - this is good for they reach both - heart and mind. And all to the good of the Spirit between us.

Listening one to another - and sharing one to another. That the hands of the circle might be joined. (Yeah right, she listens to nobody except the little voices in her head.)

That we link together and the circle becomes larger and stronger.

A circle...in water. Is made when a stone is cast in - it is small... than as it grows it becomes larger. This sacred circle, I feel will make for many stones of truth to be cast in - and the ripples of things truthfully said will expand out to others who will gather and make this circle expand further. (Calling all cars, shes looking for other mental midgets to join her version of the KKK.)

So I welcome all, that came before me and all that come after. Knowing what richness we bring in truth. And loving that it is so. ........ (As long as it's her version of the truth - which really means likes - that you speak.)

She removes her hands, and lets the head ache ease as some confusion departs. As her mind starts to clear....

*Ariki...I unwrap your protection from my heart for a small space,... I let the mantle drop.

For I will replay and consider the dirty words that swill from the pool of Sacred Circles

......." f***king b****, stupid, hypocrite, p*ss off, moronic, racist, arrogant, condescending, psychotic, bigot,
whiner, fool...overreaction - anger - rage - extreme emotionalism......and hate " ... (With the way she acts, I would say these are all accurate descriptions of her, how prophetic that she calls herself these.)

Her headache returns. *Hmmm those are at least direct, they come at you arrows of spite....not the words that smear, vague, non-tangible no proof, but so many...seeking to shrink your mauri (spirit for life). (You reap what you sow baby, you struck out with lies and hatred, you deserve what you get.)

Such people, as these the spirit behind such would eat your own if it could....

AUE!!.......

Her head bolts up. A smile plays across her mouth, Pele returns. *Fool Kat* ... she laughs to herself. *There is no sense in finding reason, where reason isn't behind the words or spirit there!...fool - what is your headache there for?, *g* but- to t-e-l-l you.* (That's what many have been saying to you Pele, there is no reasoning with you, you just want it your way, regardless of the truth.)

Breathes all the way in - lifts her face and lets all the air out... * hhhhaaaaaaaaa* Breathes in. Smiles. Head clears. Her smile broadens.

What to be done? ...Turangawaewae!! Create a place to stand.
Pele sets a square around her, beneath her feet, rich volcanic earth, solid, firm...she sets it across the water, to the world above, amongst the strangers that are kin. She sees it, smells it - it is Aotearoa, it is Hawaii, FEEL it. It is the rich clean polynesian atoll set in "you are entering Indian country" burning down to touch Papas blood deep deep below flowing to home. lol.

Then she calls forth that fire - that which is the living blood down the spine of Papanuku - Mother Earth. She pulls it into her spine and laughs. Reaches out and draws back on the mantle of Ariki,to let it sit lightly across her shoulders. (Well, the Hawaiians placated Pele, the Volcano Goddess, and still do, with booze. Somebody, quick toss her a bottle, she's obviously going through withdrawal.)

And thinks happily... *stuff em* LOL. (Yep, like we've been saying all along, you 'listen', but you don't hear. Typical of somebody that is so myopic.)

And now nobody is posting anything to or about Kat/Pele (except her so called real Indian who doesn't know what smudging is. True to form, Kat/Pele posted this:

Please direct all hate mail to non AS email. All email from those who demand reply, but state they will delete all sent,
will not be read if sent through the AS mailing system. All those who start with (insert insult here)_____________ will not be read either. In fact any email sent to AS Pele MorningStar email will just not be read. (Note hate email, hate posts are whatever she doesn't agree with.)

You can send hate mail to here [email protected]. On the condition that falsehood will be replied to. (Of course she will reply, she doesn't know when to shut up!)

My words were deleted this morning, which Sacred Circles is offended by. Are not breaking CoC, confirmed by DG... they just want to keep your kind of peace LOL. Assimilate or else? They have been relocated to my home. Enter always if you have a desire to understand, respect and think of others as no less than yourself and would rather make peace than speak of it only - otherwise truth spoken from heart and mind will I am sure offend. (Which really means, they were offensive, and were pulled. And sure, relocate them to your 'home'. But if people desire to understand, they will go elsewhere, unless they want to see hatred, lies, and plan to understand somebody with a personality disorder.)

Thank you...please return to your regularly scheduled programme. (Does this mean she will shut up? Naaaaa, that would be too good to be true. Nobody is responding to her, yet she keeps going and going, just like the energizer bunny - quick somebody, take out the damn batteries!)

Enter yet another player. Now this fool is one of the New Age idiots who we was complained about for commiting spiritual genocide, brought in by other New Agers to intentionally irritate and piss of a long time member. Ones that AS choses to ignor what they do.

What kind of horrible people would condone this type of behavior?
Is this what the people at the "so called" SacredCircles here at MP see as acceptable?
Creating a site devoted purely to the denegration of an individual?
The people responsible for the creation of this site:
http://www6.bravenet.com/vote/vote.asp?userid=mw305421
Should be the ones banned from AS permanently!

......"Question #1
What do you think of Pele/Kat?
She's a nutcase, definate candidate for the rubber room.
She's a control freak.
She needs to get a life.
She can't see the forest for the trees.
She's just hard up, she needs to get laid.

Question #2
Ancient Sites
Needs to quit favoring Sacred Cows like Pele
Needs to quit denying people's freedom of speech.
Needs to ban Pele/Kat forever".....

The people behind this are the same group that are trying to use Ancient Sites as a forum for their
disgusting racist convictions, by posting politcal propaganda, and by insulting all non-Native Americans that try to come to MP to learn about NA culture, or just to roleplay and have fun. This sort of racist, hypocritical, and closeminded attitude should not be tolerated here at AS, or anywhere else! (LOL, and you know what, this site wasn't advertised, so you had no way of knowing where it was Dreamcatcher, unless you had not been given it by Pele/Kat - which means I'm still right, she's trying to force her way on others STILL. I knew she couldn't keep her big mouth shut.)

Close Down SacredCircles once and for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pssssssssst, dreamcatcher tecumseh - We aren't a part of Sacred Circles, nor are we even members of Ancient Sites any more! That's where the url of of this site comes from - BOYCOTT ANCIENT SITES. I take it you can't read either! What's more dearie, AS DG's themselves say they cannot control what goes on off of AS.

Here's another from the Idiot name Dreamcatcher:

Please note, that the queen of MP, and co-founder of Sacred Circles
DW Morningstar is part of a movement to persecute and denegrate a member of her
own family! (No she isn't, and I will testify to that in court!)

the following site is dedicated to the the harm and defimation of Kat/Pele Mornginstar.
I am disgusted and sickened by this action, and I am asking that the Morningstar family
band together to :
1. close down Sacred Circles now and forever (yeah right, that's what Zulu2, Babar, Lbrammer, Blu, Roguewarrior have been trying to force)
2. remove DW from office, with no chance of holding office here at MP again, due to
her racist political agenda.
3. that MP stop being used as a sounding board for the anti-white view of a few certain
individuals, and be returned to the purpose it was intended, RolePlaying! (Pssst, MP wasn't intended as roleplay)

Psssssssssst, Dreamwalker has nothing to do with this other than other people mentioned her name. What's more, she had nothing to do with the making of this website, or the poll.

Now Dreamcatcher, I'll make this real large since you are such a non seeing moron, nobody here has said anything anti-any race. And you need to get off your high horse and quit committing spiritual genocide!

Ancient Sites has a policy that one member is not to infringe on the others enjoyment of the site. I'm wondering why they haven't banned Kat/Pele for her hateful posts, which are obviously harassing, trolling, and baiting. Or for her hateful and repeated grams. Perhaps it is as others Pele/Kat has lam blasted say, Pele is AS's sacred cow.

Now this next post by Kat/Pele is really humorous:

I would like to see the Code of Conduct and the deletion of threads and posts also to be conducted by the DGs in a fair, and non-preferential fashion. We know full well they are human, but at least if they would communicate clearly and act in accordance to their own rules? (Careful what you ask for dear, a good portion of your posts would kiss it good bye if they did play by the rules.)

I had a post removed recently - a meditation on 'the Inner journey' board. I asked the DG in question, what CoC I broke as yet no reply. In fact his first post at my domus indicates that no CoC was broken, he removed it merely so it would keep the peace - such as it is. What I would like to know, is what clear parameters are there - keeping in mind freedom of speech and expression? I note when I ask definitions of this or that I basically get a different answer depending on who you ask. (Keeping the peace, you were clearly baiting, and to keep the peace it had to be removed.)

I noted a DG had deleted her post on a board when asking why I found that she had posted, sufficent to draw out a certain type of response from an individual that she knew would be of the nature sufficent to justify her being banned. Essentially baiting. No? No, obviously not because a DG did so. (Guess what - most of your posts are definately baiting, they haven't banned you butt yet.)

In the past we know the banning of others is pretty capricious and depends much on who knows who and if the person
knows how the system works. ie: In the past, although the CoC says the person is removed from behind the persona. Its been confirmed by DG that the STATED CoC is NOT how it works. Usually the one persona is removed leaving the person behind. Hence if a person has a number of persona on anyone board, they can simply continue whilst one is tullied. Except on one occassion that has been the case. (Yep, you know some pretty high ups, you whine to them constantly, and you aren't banned even though you flagrantly break the rules. I guess it does depend on who you know.)

Could we just have some common sense fairplay that has action on the basis of principle rather than personality. (Yes please - they can start by banning Kat/Pele.)

Yet another comment from one of the people who came in to intentionally degrade a particular person, and one who practices in spiritual genocide, on RogueWarrior. Yet AS persists in allowing this type of person to keep practicing blatant racism.

I too have been reading the posts both at SC and other sites also.

Whilst I have no problem with the points raised by the people regarding the atrocities,and ongoing oppression of the Native Americans,I DO have a problem with the way in which these points are dragged to the forefront of the posts. (psssssssssst, it was the side you are defending who brought up the you can't talk about it.)

I understand and agree that these issues need to be addressed,but when they are brought up in a reply to posts that have no bearing on them,by people expressing opinions as everybody has a right to do,and all they get is slander and angry remarks,even to the point of Hate-mail???? I begin to question the stability of some people. (We question your reading ability. And the people you are defending have told others they have no right to express their opinion.)

I was given to understand that AS,and more importantly,MP,was a place to come and learn the cultures and histories of all those native to the Americas. (That DOES include the Central and Southern areas,doesn't it?). I find that what I have learned so far is that it is fine to have such a strong and ancient spirituality,but it must be balanced by hate,anger,blindness and a refusal to accept that anybody that is not a full blood Native American has a right to express views and opinions,and therefore is also some sort of subhuman,not worthy of the time it would take to explain in a calm and rational way that they are unwittingly causing offence to those they are trying to learn from.
I accept that there is anger and hate mixed into the history,rightly so for the things have happened,but surely,that anger and hatred has a more worthy target than those who come here to learn and talk? (Who said it didn't include Central and South America? And nobody, I repeat nobody has said that the opinions of only full bloods were acceptable, and nobody has been called subhuman. And people who tell those who are in the know to shut up because telling the truth offends, these people aren't here to learn. They are here to help racism, the real racism at AS to flourish. I think the Pele fan club - of which I'm sure she has recruited from the spiritual genocide people intentionally- needs some serious reading and comprehension lessons.)

If that is not the case,then I am truly sorry that I made such a huge blunder in thinking that the the Native Americans had such a high sense of honour and respect for fellow people,which has not been the case in recent posts,especially those directed at Kat Morningstar. The post including the two questions are probably the most offensive I've had the disgust to read for a long time,just proves that the person responsible has absolutely no right to call themself civilised.Lobotomised,maybe. (Psssssssst, it's Kat that has been making the accusations dearie, other people have just been trying to defend themselves against Kat's baseless accusations.)

I am angry for the way Kat has been treated recently,all stemming fron a misconstrued remark,which,correct me if I'm wrong,has been apologised for on more than one occasion,yet still the issue is dragged on and on and now we see threats of physical attack,slander,verbal abuse and hate mail.What is wrong with these people? I think it's a good idea for those who are tempted to boycott the site,perhaps those of us who would like to learn from those willing to take the time to teach can actually feel like we are wanted,instead of feeling like we shouldn't be here. (Please profide proof of that there have been threats of physical attack and hate male? And please read again, it's Kat that has been engaging in verbal abuse and slander - calling people racists who weren't even in the initial discussion. My question, what is wrong with YOU people making these accusations. And as long as people like you are at AS, there will be no improvement. It is you people supposedly wanting to learn, but only learn the parts that are easy, and then abuse them and commit spiritual genocide that are ruining AS.)

Go ahead,Boycott the site,maybe some work can be done to repair the damage that has already been done,but I doubt it. (Nope, as long as you and your racist spiritual genocidal buddies are still at AS, nothing at AS can be fixed, unless AS actually has the stones to do what is right and tell you guys to quit your racist rants there.)

I add my voice to DreamCatcher's,until such time as we can learn from each other in peace,and discuss the differences we may have without resorting to infantile and moronic threats and what amount to name-calling,Sacred Circles should not be allowed to continue,as it is a stage for hypocritical remarks and not the place to be made welcome,nor a place of learning,mutual understanding or most importantly, PEACE!!!!!! (I figured you idiots from the spiritual genocide family that came at the call of the spiritual genocide queen would side with Pele, you've all been trying to trash anothers reputation for MONTHS. And a place of learning actually means the truths be told, the whole truth, not just the parts you want to hear so you can abuse!)

And now enter yet another new player, a Tahido Sequyah, and as the links in his homesite point out, this is really threeskies Sequyah. Here is he siding with the spiritual genociders so he can get even with somebody who broke off their relationship with him in real life.

There was a time when Sacred Circles was a place to call home. In the past several weeks the new administration within that group has seen fit to chage things so that it is no longer a 'Sacred' circle. Many good people have resigned and I think that the new elder and keeper of the words should go back and read the mission statement of their group. It seems to me that they have forgotten what sacred circles is all about. (nope, people have quit because of people like you three, ones who lie!)

And then this, another comment from the spiritual genocide crowd:

I wondered if anybody else had noticed what I have been seeing. I read the words at SC with horror.
I wanted to post something there, but can't because I am not a member. Since I have no desire to join that group, I came here to post my views, to awaken this unused thread, and perhaps open some hearts, minds, and voices! (Of course you wouldn't want to join Sacred Circles, you came online with your other spiritual genociders with the sole intention of defaming one person and shutting it down! Don't forget, the DG's have all your posts from the site that you planned you attack on.)

I know there are atrocities out there in the world, which is sad, but what is sadder still is the atrocities that are happening here. (Yeah, I agree, the atrocities being the spiritual genocide crowd and the anti-Indian racists sponsored by AS.)

I read words filled with hipocrasy, and see a double standard that I can no longer ignore. (What, you're actually going to call for the banning of you spiritual genociders for your racism?)

I am frim in my belief that Sacred Circles should be closed down NOW, and FOREVER, and DreamWalker should resign as Queen for her actions. I also think her CHARITABLE partonship should be revoked! It is her position as Patron, and Queen that allows her continue fueling the fire of hate and rhetoric! (She's not feuling anything, she hasn't even made a comment on the board. The ones fueling the hatred are you spiritual genociders and Pele/Kat

Perhaps we could open a new group, called Pow Wow, or something like that, and use it to spend time talking about the wonderful spiritual nature of a true Sacred Circle, and the beautiful connection to the Earth Mother that we all share, no matter the color of our skin, hair, or eyes, or even the colors of our parents and grandparents! We can come together as on people, black, white, red, yellow, brown..and enjoy being here together, and learn from eachother's cultures! (Spoken like a true spiritual genocider. Nobody has said anything about the color of any person or that any racial group was bad. But if you only want to learn the good or easy parts, then you don't want to really learn.)

And here comes Kat/Pele again - told you she just can't shut her mouth:

"But I know hate when I see and feel it and hatred has been so thick in the words written here of late"
Where?...you know consider that the words that people write and the meaning taken have at times more to do
with the reader than the writer. (Ah, are you finally seeing the light Kat? Seeing that it is a problem with YOUR interpretation?)

"....some have likened a smudge bowl or pot or shell - whatever one uses in ceremonial smudging to that of a
chamber pot and then attacks because they say how are they suppose to know?" Where? (Hey dummie, it was deleted by the DG's because it was extremely offensive, but your comments hailing him for that post are still up there.)

"Because of a few who continue on with this slaughter of hatred and allegations and name calling - such as being
called a racist?" Where? (Psssssssss, you and your spiritual genocide friends Kat.)

"All I know is one night I come to Sacred Circle - one early morning I should say, and I am grammed immediately
by a name I have never seen, or innocently and perhaps I am naive - but rather be naive than filled with such hatred- demanding I do something about posts made at Sacred Circles - posts I am totally unaware of - for I have not yet had a chance to even check my own mail or messages - and again, not knowing this person - I tried to tell them again and again, please give me a chance to see what is written and I do not have the power to delete anyone's posts"

Again.... do you remember this reply to similar comments made? I repeat:

".... if you wish to refer to private conversation and your version of the events okay. I will reply. But I would prefer to deal with facts also - so on the basis you share the grams beginning to end - and that you if I look at what is written has been 'edited' (lets suppose :) that you will have a trusted person, that I also agree on, check that those grams are so Go ahead. Than maybe we can come to an understanding based not on hearsay - but facts. (Yes please, send them to me!)

_I_ remember a heated person at the other end, shouting at me, asking me "Who are you?", who when I said I
appreciate you care, and "relax, whenever" on when you could come back to me called me "condescending"
lol....etc etc. If you wish private conversation public - than lets have the facts. ".

In other words why not put it all up. I challenged you to - Great Spirit forbid that we don't deal in truth here - hearsay allows for so much more creative expression, no? (Sure does, that's why you engage in it Kat.)

"Otherwise, we can if this is a more personal issue between you and I - review the gram log between us - and say
where we are coming from. And maybe make peace. What say you? Either way my hand is open. (Only patrons have gram logs, so Kat couldn't review anything!)

(Aroha, btw means 'love' more than that actually. Arohanui - means 'great love'. Kia Ora, means colloquially 'be well' but more 'be life' have life within, whole....Ahhh such bad words are these. LOL )

The reply was "NO" was it not? No dealing in literally what was said and done. Breathe your smoke?, excuse me - its against my religion. ALL of them *g* Why not deal in truth instead of compelling a person to breath smoke that can't be transmitted digitally yet over the internet? : ) Hullo? In other words walk the talk? (psssssssss, hey Kat, caffeine is against the Mormon religion too, yet Mormons drink tea which has caffiene in it.)

Btw, who told you Kat was Pele? Gosh...would it have been ME?!!! In the same conversation no less. Make sure you include THAT particular gram, okay? (She doesn't have to dummie, you posted that information for the whole world to seee.)

" I have been told by one of the gods some time ago - names were not suppose to be used in writing and yet, I see
this happening and I wonder why are some allowed to do this, while others are not? Is this somewhat censorship? I
wonder. I don't know."

Thats something you wouldn't do, huh? There's a complaint board, why not ask. There's the DG online or their homes you can post or find out. If you can get clear clarification of the rules they play by and share I think a lot of people would be very interested! :)

There's a great deal more of this kind of spiel all over the MP.
Essentially we have people who insist that they are being labeled and name called and a great deal more. Ooooo-kay. I ask those people to actually provide the evidence for it? Admittedly asking a third time, may be an exercise in futility. What they can't seem to do admidst the multitude of words they speak is show one place - where what they have stated has occurred. Maybe given they can't do so, defaming charactor, organising off site hate sites, and simply spouting off, hearsay, mudsling and the rest is the only option they can take. (Pssst, remember the GRINGO and MACHO posts? And we have your repeated attacks calling everybody racists because they speak the truth, well, you don't call yourself that when you do the exact same thing.)

Listen up peoples, guess what? The Gods will be only too hungry to ban me. Get it. So help them out....all you have to do is provide the evidence. Is this not a bulletin board? The PRINTED word? Hullo? (I wish they would ban you!)

NOTE no names now ya hear, The rules of the game? GOT it. Make it obvious who you are talking about, talk about them not to them.

LOL. Etiquette AS style.

Now, the spiritual genocide crowd has joined the ranks, attempting to deride one person who at this point has yet to comment on the goings on, they even call for her ouster even though she has said not one word. Several of these posts have been deleted before we could even see them, so they must have been pretty vile. Then people came into to defend this person. And like typical, Kat still can't keep her mouth shut. Now she comes in with this:

Kat turns and looks out to those standing in the gathering of SC.*

I have words to say to such as these... if the Gods permit LOL...*looking darkly heavenward -lightening bolt extended*

Those whose words these make...?

: "Hey, keep it up. There are about 40 of us sitting laughing. You keep giving us more information to post about you.
How does it feel have 40 people working together to accumulate the factual information, to be able to show the world a supreme example of stupidity and you're the one the dunce cap is on?" (The number is now higher than 40, we've advertised these goings onto various Indians throughout the country, and to other friends in Europe.)

....I challenge you and any other to face me. I can take you on one by one, or I can take you on all together. You choose. But as those who first left this circle (though not completely) have said I can not email you, or this is harrassment, that they will not speak here on this ground SC, MP or AS. That they will choose another ground. Good, lets take all this out to common ground where you feel comfortable to speak without inhibition :P. (Psssssst, hey honey, anybody in the world can view these posts without signing on, in fact many have as they didn't believe anybody would actually be stupid enough to keep posting the crap you are posting. In fact, a healthy number of people who never were members of AS are helping in this project, and have been since the beginning. Your posts effectively stopped people who were looking at AS from even registering and signing on for the first time. And notice the little :P, a poor ASCII way of sticking out one's tongue - how very juvenile. But hey Kat, if you want to appear puerile to the whole world, at least use the better one of :þ)

Hmmmmm But rather than a ground you can talk, secure in that no reply can be made....*quiet smile* (Who said you couldn't make a reply, seems you are doing it just fine. How about presenting the truth, the words as they were actually sent to you instead of lying?)

I come to you - and say... Is not 40 people enough for you to face me? (LOL, sure, you want to face us, get mIRC, a chat program, I know how to log everything there, I would love to be able to post your fodder from there! Download the program - it's free, and I'll see how many of the hundreds of people I can get to come on and tell you what a racist you are being.)

You do me great honour, thank you.

For if the odds are 40 against one. What mana you render me - as... I am still standing . (Of course you are, you have your racist spiritual genociders and the racist AS gods backing you up. AS wouldn't kill their sacred cow. Say MOOOO Kat.)

In Maori fashion (*looks heavenward to the Gods, praying they develop a bit of cultural literacy...* ) ... I will challenge you. (Cultural literacy? LOL! Better you pray to the your gods for a rational functioning brain.)

Lets bring all things to open debate - on common ground of your choosing. A common bulletin board - with an impartial board moderator who will delete nothing said. Fair? (Psssst, bulletin boards wouldn't allow your racist tripe on it, all except AS. But the chat room will work, since the chat will exist for one night, and I have the power to log everything there, so YOU can't lie about it like you did with the gram situation.)

And let our words bring us either honour or shame. (LOL, oh your words have been bringing you shame alright, you even have somebody posting in your defense who is in the VA psych ward! LOL, somebody great to have on your side.)

Otherwise, I know you to be cowards, who can not prove their words and people who pursue hatreds path. Rather than be prepared to make peace - by letting all speak. (Letting all speak? YOU? You whose intent it is to drown out everybody's voice but your own? LOL)

To my friends...please no more anger.
Let us do the work, of making peace, not by hushing each other up, but having a place to talk and say whatever is in our hearts and minds to say. (How is anybody at AS supposed to have joy when the likes of you are posting? And not hushing others up? LOL then shut up Kat.)

In the Diaz note reference above. Diaz is one of the conquerors, and as we all know, they write the history, but it is not always an accurate or truthful accounting. Quite often in these 'conquerors' lied profusely to justify their heinous actions. Here is one one website says about the anthropologist aspect:

We refuse to allow our spirituality to be reduced to a commodity or fad. Our ancestors gave their lives to defend our way of life - to protect our spirituality and sovereignty. Our elders endured the 'Kill the Indian, Save the Man' boarding school regime to protect what we have today. Many sacrificed and fell in those lost generations but because some survived our traditions and spirituality survived, and so we survive as Lakotas. We fight in defense of our spirituality so our children and future generations will also survive - as Lakotas. Our spirituality is our strength and our identity. We continue to resist attempts to assimilate and eradicate us. Prior to the boarding schools, President Ulysses S. Grant divided our reservations up and threw them to which ever denomination wanted to 'Christianize' us, and in places the effects of the missionaries' influence are still prevalent. Many of the books that have become 'definitive' for Anglo ethnographers, anthropologists, theologians and now wannabes, were compiled in that era. Countless misconceptions resulted due to the authors and editors misinterpretations, primarily because, with regard to spirituality, their significant points of reference were all Judaic/Christian, compounded by translation from Lakota to latter Indo-European. What they were told was not always what they wrote but these documents continue to be accepted as credible. Those who said they wanted to learn didn't listen - so what's changed?

This is a very good site, and you should check it out: Lakota Oyate

In light of Ancient Sites repeated support for those people who wish to support racists by telling us we can't tell the truth, and the whole truth, I urge a boycott.

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